Hot Springs Reports

[bangedupshins]

In the interest of building a more robust hot springs database, I have a few suggestions of items I'd like to see reported (in addition to the subjective impressions):

Geographical coordinates and datum used
Route taken and availability of GPS track, if any
Physical descriptions of pool(s)

Number, shape and size
Construction
Cleanliness (algae, litter, etc)

Water Quality

Clarity
Flow Rate
Temperature (at source and pool)
pH (using cheap litmus test strips)

At Scenic, my measurements get pretty involved since we are establishing a technical history of Scenic to understand it's geothermal plumbing. Tests such as mineral assays can tell us how deep the geothermal reservoir that feeds the springs is: i.e., the lack of heavier minerals implies a shallow-seated source of heat . . . which matches the geology of the region (Scenic's waters are heated from the residual heat of a 35 million year-old solidified magma upwelling (pluton). Those tests were done by an assay laboratory from water samples we supplied.

More germane to our needs are to have a baseline to understand the quality of the water and how it might change over time as rain and snowmelt affect the cycle by percolating down through the rock fractures. For this, flow rates and temperature measurements over time are giving us a fairly predictable pattern.

Turbidity, or water clarity (including algae growth), warns us of potential contamination; and conductivity and pH measurements define the health of the geothermal plumbing.

Not all of these measurements make sense for the general public but they are simple to perform and can be informative . . . and would make one heck of a database to serious hot spring researchers . . . they tell a lot about what is happening underground.

The Tests:

Turbidity or clarity: Flow through hot springs pools should have sufficient water clarity such that a matte black disk, six inches in dimeter, is readily visibile when placed on a white field at the deepest part of the pool. Mine is a painted top from a #10 can place on a white piece of plastic. Easy and light to carry in backpack.

The 'feel' of the water: The pool water should have a pH between 7.2 and 9.4. Use pH Test Strips. I buy mine from a restaurant supply store where they are sold to be used to test the pH sanitizing ability of dishwashing machines. You dip a strip in the water and then compare the color change of the strip to a chart to come up with the pH. A vial of a 100 strip costs around $5.

Total Dissolved Solids (ppm), a measure of the conductivity of the minerals in the water which gives a result in dissolved solids in part per million (ppm). This test is relative unless you have a control mimicking the minerals in the hot spring to calibrate the meter. However, the results are adequate for trends.

I use the ExStik Conductivity/TDS/Salinity Meter which has the added benifit of measuring water temperature and is also waterproof. Do not use the Hanna line of TDS testers as their equipment is no longer supported. The salinity measurement adjusts the conductance measurement to the standard salinity of seawater, unnecessary in freshwater hot springs.

My primary thermometer is a $15 digital probe unit available at most restaurant supply stores.

Water flow rates should be sufficient to turn over the entire pool volume in eight hours, max (Montana standards), more appropriately every 3 hrs. This measure is simple if you have a large container of known volume to which you can time how long it takes to fill it. A five gallon plastic bucket in twenty seconds would give a flow rate of fifteen gpm (60 sec in a minute/20 sec to fill X 5 gals = 15 gpm).

Knowing the volume of the pool (either from direct measurement or calculated from how long the pool takes to refill from a known flow rate, will give you the turnover time.

At a minimum, temperature, clarity, flow rate, turn-over time of the water in the pool, and 'feel' of water (the pH) gives a very good indication of the nature of the hot springs. Added to the standards you already collect (site cleanliness, bug reports, etc.), and it would be pretty comprehensive. [/b]

[Kim_S]

Great ideas Rick! I think a lot of us provide at least some of the information to enhance our trip reports. The GHC Database also includes a lot of this same information besides temperature, including flow rates, Total Dissolved Solids (TDS), Ph, Conductivity, and a complete chemical analysis of the water. For hot wells, depth also included.

[bangedupshins]

I agree Kim . . .

GeoHeat is a great resource but it is a static one. We, however, are out there visiting these hot springs and a more or less frequent basis and in my mind, it is the changes that are important.

Scenic, for example, is on a 2 week cycle . . . something unknown to the investigators who published the scarce technical data on Scenic in 1982 (and not since). Regulars are fully familiar with the cycle which equates the amount of time before environmental factors such as rainfall, snowmelt and groundwater movement affect the output and temperature of the springs.

Scenic is also extremely consistent in the source temperatures, varying by less than a few degrees when the environmental factors are taken into account. A year and a half ago the main spring at Scenic suddenly took a five to ten degree drop in temperature and an 3gpm increase in flow. That was anomalous and enough for Mike to go investigating. What we discovered was that someone had decided to 'improve' the springs one night and gone in with a rock hammer to open the sources up. What happened was a second fracture was exposed that fed and mixed another cooler spring into the main sources at a location we didn't dare mess with (at least, not yet).

So for me, a report of unexpected temperatures or flows tells me something is going on. There are many well-meaning soakers out there who believe a minor change here or there makes things better. It is often not until much later when the consequences are known. By any info is better than nothing, eh?

Rick

[Kim_S]

Absolutely Rick! Like you, I have been repeatedly to certain hot springs where well-meaning users have tried to rebuild or modify springs to increase water flow, temperature or depth. Honestly, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Then there's the acts of nature than can create significant changes, especially with temperature-specifically earthquakes. I've monitored temperatures at several springs in Imperial Valley over the years that are on or adjacent to fault lines, and whenever there is a temblor, the water temperature can change dramatically. Not always the right way however! One spring west of the Salton Sea has gone from 110 to 85 degrees over the years due to seismic events.

[Jeff Allen]

Cool Rick!

I always start out recording and measuring like the good scientist I try to be. My research assistant (who ever is with me) is busy taking notes for the paper which is soon to be published.

Then the excitment kicks in (artist) and I start to forget to take the measurements and readings and I expirence the moment. Photos, drawing & notes of future works are in the works.

Next thing I know I'm heading east on I-80 and it's over...

[soaksdata]

Rick,
As you may know I have a database in the works.
It has much of what you listed and then some.
Some of the data I want to put in each report is too expensive without funding. Not to mention it would be hard if not impossible for multiple people to obtain the same information in each location. At least without multiple kits and again more funding.
The database I am working on has been designed to allow multiple people to add to the data in a uniform way. It also can be loaded into a GPS with the existing titles created for our database. It can also be loaded into most map software without change.
No need to relabel or number .
This is for every hot spring in North America.
Those of you working on a database may want to get involved in our project.
Our design allows additions and changes, in case something is missing that others may want add.
Our 1st goal is to catalog all hot springs so we have a total understanding of the resourses we want to protect.

You can reach me at
soaksdata@gmail.com

[Kim_S]

Eric, as you know, we've communicated off and on over the past year or two about your database, and you are to be commended for your efforts. I think the most critical thing missing from many of the extensive hot springs databases that are already available is accurate latitudes and longitudes. I think its essential to have these accurate lats and longs in your database not just for GPS purposes but for map location and other reference material. Josh Hunt's and Kirk K's work developing the .kmz file for Google Earth from the NGDC is great, but again, the latitudes and longitudes are WAY off in many cases.

Like you mentioned Rick (bangedupshins) has done extensive work with this type of stuff for his many web projects.

Also, I don't know if you would consider this, but it would be great if you could put a link to soakers.forum under your "Soaking Links" area of your website!! Thanks, Kim

[bangedupshins]

Rick,
As you may know I have a database in the works. It has much of what you listed and then some.
Some of the data I want to put in each report is too expensive without funding. Not to mention it would be hard if not impossible for multiple people to obtain the same information in each location. At least without multiple kits and again more funding.

Eric (and Ron), We've chatted a few times about the database and what was needed/desired. What is yet to be noted is whether that resource would be open to the public, or held close . . . and to whom. Ideally, soakersforum would be a good place to put a hot spring information submittal page to upload data collected by the users (information moderated, of course). Registered members could input readings, GPS coords and tracks, conditions,etc. Those into research and historical documentation could scan and upload things like old maps, deeds and titles, etc. Of course, none of this will work very well unless the user could also search the database for information . . . so the question becomes, how close held is this info?

I've corresponded with Marjorie (on the new edition) and Josh (at Idaho HS) and wondered 'who now owns the information I've given' or the information I've gleaned. Touchy subject . . . kind of like the great photos in this forum that by dint of posting tend to the public domain, but which I'm sure Wayne, Bruce and others would like attribution at the very least should their pictures get posted elsewhere. Yet that is hard to do with the ease of copying a photo without the attendant metadata.

Personally, what I post in the various forums is either my own data or information found and assumed in the public domain. Proprietary information (particularly about Scenic) does not get posted because it then becomes free-for-all.

I was just contacted recently by a geologist of AltaRock Energy requesting permission to sample and have a look at Scenic HS for a geothermal-potential report his company is doing for Snohomish County. Much of the data he is seeking resides in Open File Reports done by the DNR in the 1980s, so I conditioned access on the sharing of whatever information and conclusions his company found about Scenic, to which they agreed. In this case it becomes fairly certain who owns the data and posting to an online database may (or may not) be appropriate depending on the uses that database is going to be put to use and who has access to it. You're going to have to be very clear about ownership of information before users are going to feel comfortable about giving up good information.

Collecting that information - current hot spring conditions-wise - does not have to be particularly onerous. A tutorial of what to look for and how to take readings . . . an accurate stem thermometer, a watch and a container to measure flow, and a vial of pH strips to measure alkalinity will provide a lot of information on the health of a hot spring. Subjective observations could be made of turbidity, clarity and algae growth. A camera and GPS unit (something most hikers already have) would round out data. The only expensive part would be a water analysis for minerals and e coli fecalform levels, which requires training on how to take and secure the sample. Water analysis tests in a certified lab cost around $100 to $200 . . . beyond most of our budgets. However, mineral analysis is often already in the public domain through various state agencies.

Regards, gps coords, I think I already have a pretty good handle on a large number of west coast hot springs that I'm inputting to a Google-style interactive map. Have to get that finished and posted soon.

Jeez, had to edit this because I realised I'd already posted my testing regimen in another post.


Sorry for the length of this post . . .
Rick

[soaksdata]

Hey Kim,
I agree that as of now there is not a single accurate database that even covers a state. Not to mention a continent.
It is a huge project that needs more technical expertise than I have, which makes progress slow. Integrating the photos and trip reports with the Excel files is my next hurdle.
Every trip report has: photos and video
Type of spring,GPS,elevation,state,county,closest town,
fees,land status and type,parking..with GPS, Directions
trail and road distance and conditions(maybe route and Track) I have found this to be unrealistic with most trails under trees.
Elivation gain,camping,facilities,nearest services and attractions.
HISTORY in detail wherever available.
Number of pools and sources each with:
gps,temp,ph,pool type size and depth, drain ?, flow,
pipes and hardware used
fill and drain time,algae,clarity,odor,trash,usage,privacy and rating 1-10.
I believe that covers everything except water chemistry,
which I can't afford.

As for our web site , it is shut down/unfunded .
There is so much work to be done and so little time.
Eric

[Kim_S]

Eric, Rick makes a lot of good points about databases and how much information is proprietary and shareable. For example, you mentioned chemistry. The GHC Western States database has detailed chemistry for most springs, but I'm assuming that is considered proprietary.

I think all of us who post photos here realize that they essentially become part of the public domain, and I think most of us would be happy to have our photos utilized in a database. I would think just asking our permission should be enough. However, I don't know enough about copyright laws to know if non-permissive posting is an issue.

Rick, with your Information Security background and experience with Google Earth, you are WAY ahead of all us in developing that Google Earth hot springs coverage. I know its a lot of work but it will be a terrific tool!

[bangedupshins]

I think all of us who post photos here realize that they essentially become part of the public domain, and I think most of us would be happy to have our photos utilized in a database. I would think just asking our permission should be enough. However, I don't know enough about copyright laws to know if non-permissive posting is an issue.

I haven't seen anything in the forum, itself, pertaining to copyright or ownership of material. I use a Creative Commons License on my websites and blogs and was thinking that would be a good way for posters to retain some control over the stuff they post within this forum. I experimented with adding the following code to my Signature:

Code: Select all

[img]http://creativecommons.org/images/public/somerights20.png[/img] This post is licensed under a [url=http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/]Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License[/url]

which yields:

This post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License

That should serve as notice to casual image lifters that the material belongs to someone else. Since the license is in your signature, it gets appended to every post and you don't have to think about forgetting to protect your material. You could, of course, set different restrictions on the use of your material. Visit Creative Commons to tailor your own.

Rick

[First Penguin]

If I recall correctly since it's been a few weeks since I last read information on copyrights of pictures

The 1970s are important on the ownership of pictures. IIRC it's 1978 to be closer to exact. Any pictures taken before Jan 1, 1978 inherit an automatic 25 year copyright to the taker with an option to renew for another 25 years. Therefore any pictures taken previous to this date are close to, if not out of, the optional extension and thereby available to be scanned and recreated. Photos taken AFTER this date receive more coverage. Here's where my memory gets a little hazy. I believe that photographs now receive 50 years, or if owned by a business the lifetime of the business plus 25 years. And the copyright symbol is no longer required to be visible, and neither are watermarks (although still highly recommended!)

I'll edit this a bit when I go back to work and can look at some documentation to firm up facts and figures. fp

[bangedupshins]

Life + 70 years for an individual, 95 years for a published work of a corporation. A synopsis of copyright terms is here.

There is also a Fair Use Doctrine for non-commercial use of material.

The Creative Commons License was meant to simplify what a user could (and could not) do with material licensed under that framework. The Creative Commons License carries legal force.

However, this all begs the common situation in that unless you can prove an image is yours, it is a simple matter to copy an image from a website, do some minor editing and claim it as yours. There are several ways to protect yourself in that regard. One of them is watermarking.

In the simplest regards, a watermark is an visual overlay of your claim to the image . . . on the image, itself. No one likes them because they detract from the image. Often they are placed way down near the margin for that reason. A purloiner need only crop the copyright from the image.

Any alteration of an image will change its' digital fingerprint . . . even the simple re-saving of a jpeg, since the jpeg will be resampled upon each save. A recent advance is the encoding of a digital signature in the color-space of images that is preserved despite alteration and re-sampling. The user obtains registers a digital signature that is his or hers, uniquely, and using special software (or plugins for Photoshop) embeds that signature covertly in the image. There are services (like DigiMarc
that will track your images on the Internet and notify you of their use . . . for a price.

A simpler, cheaper but not quite tamperproof method is to embed your copyright rights in the EXIF/IPTC header of the image file. The EXIF data contains exposure data written to the file by the camera, along with a number of other fields. EXIF data is easy to read but difficult to change without a hex writer or scarce software. IPTC metadata (meant to be easier to edit) is also saved with the file as optional information about the image. The casual user is often not aware of this metadata that carries with the image when it is copied. For example, the camera make and model along with serial number is embedded as EXIF metadata with every digital picture taken.

There are several programs that I like to use to manipulate EXIF/IPTC metadata. One is Exifer, which is no longer supported but copies can be found on the Internet. Exifer can read and write EXIF and IPTC data in your image files.

My favorite is GeoSetter which has the advantage in that it can batch edit IPTC metadata (like adding copyright to a group of images). GeoSetter also has a nifty feature for GeoCoding your image either through synchronizing to a GPS track, or interactively with a built in interface to Google Maps. Just click on the map and the geograpic coordinates are embedded within your image for use in applications like Flickr.

[Kim_S]

Rick, thank you for all the information regarding these issues. It's an important topic that is germane not only to this forum but for the rest of the digital world.

[soaksdata]

Thanks for all the good information.
We have talked about photo and informaton rights often for NAHSA. It has been one of the things slowing down the photo part of the database. I agree with Rick that photos need to be protected and the author given credit. One of the ways we thought of is to have a code for each contributor that is embeded in the photo when uploaded.This code would be set for each user when joining our site. Then combine it with something like geotrack or some other security code, most of which cost money from what I have found.
The new Magellen Trion 2000 GPS is catching my intrest, and may become a great tool once the bugs are worked out. It is the 1st GPS with the ability to run National Geographic Topo! software and has a 4 gig memory card option. It also has a 2 meg pix camera that auto embeds the gps on photo. I don't know much about this but it seems to fit in with what we want.
I think the 2 meg pix will keep the quality too low for many to want to copy. In the end I would like a user code,gps embed and 1 other form of security that won't be too expensive.
Maybe you have some ideas?
As far as the other data rights, most is in the public domain at this point.
It just has never been compiled in one place.
The data that is proprietary information would be donated(or a link for access) and kept on file for use in preservation of the related place.
It would require permission to access(ours and the owners). It is a lot to keep track of.
Help is welcome.

[bangedupshins]

{snip}
photos need to be protected and the author given credit. One of the ways we thought of is to have a code for each contributor that is embeded in the photo when uploaded.This code would be set for each user when joining our site. Then combine it with something like geotrack or some other security code, most of which cost money from what I have found.

Currently there is only one durable digital watermarking solution out there and that is DigiMarc's . . . which costs money for a yearly subscription. Problems with digital watermarks are that the casual image copier cannnot see the watermark, so it is not a deterrent. The only real use is to prove the image is yours at some later date should you find it being used without permission, attribution or being attributed to someone else. Often it is far simpler just to send notice and tell them to cease and desist.

What you describe as setting a user-code within contributed images is essentially the same as editing the EXIF data (which Exifer and GeoSetter can do). At the same time, GeoSetter can be used to set location information written directly to the image file in the header . . . and preserved across copies.

The new Magellen Trion 2000 GPS is catching my intrest

I've never been a fan of carrying around the kitchen sink. Huge feature set but at a loss for accuracy for all the attendant pieces. You may be able to see the maps on-screen, but can you lay a compass over the screen and layout a course? Give me paper topos and a compass for navigation and a GPS for spot coords and double-checking.

A built in camera may seem nice (but as you note, low resolution). Use GeoSetter to sync waypoint and track times to the 'image taken' times of your other digital camera . . . and let the software automagially GeoTag your images.

Rick

[BNMac]

Yep!

Everyone - I've split the GPS unit (GPRr, Global Positioning Unit receiver) thread into a new topic. Please continue the Hot Springs Reports discussion here!